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标题: 关于房地产价格高涨和新疆民族矛盾的两点看法--2 [打印本页]
作者: alven2009    时间: 2009-8-18 22:47
标题: 关于房地产价格高涨和新疆民族矛盾的两点看法--2
     关于新疆的民族矛盾激化，我们不能完全责怪维族的兄弟。尽管他们采取了错误的举动，但是我们汉族人没能控制自己的情绪，也同样杀了他们的人，也同样是错误的。这两个错误的结果导致了大悲剧的发生。正确的做法应该是避开当时发生动乱的场所，等待警方来控制局面。那个时候应该是警方出现在第一线，而不是我们汉族的普通居民冲到混乱地带造成更大的伤亡。拿起武器防止被伤害是应该的，但是去用残杀的方式杀害生命，我们没有这个权利。事件已经过去，我们应该进行反思。新疆问题的爆发不是一个单一的事件。维族与汉族共处了这么长时间没有发生大规模的冲突，为什么今年发生了，这应该不是偶然的。我虽然没有去过那里，对当地的情势一无所知，但可以肯定地讲，那里的民族政策一定没能很好的落实，多年各种矛盾摩擦和误解没能及时解决，导致了紧张压力的积累，最后爆发了暴力事件。为什么那么多的维族青年听从了热比娅的话，拿起匕首向我们汉族人冲杀，一定有他们的道理。为什么热比娅曾经作为一个成功的商人，被选为人大代表，她可以安享荣誉和财富，却仍要反对汉人，应该是共产党的做法激起了不满。或许在利益上侵占了维族的传统产业，或许在思想上歧视维族，本来以为我们的政策是对少数民族倾斜的，但是听到了维族在广东和其他很多地方受到歧视和不平等待遇，我感到很惊讶。同时也理解了维族为什么要起来抗争。但是要指出的是，他们那种抗争方式是非常错误的。应该进行和平的集会或活动。暴力运动的行为不能达到有效的结果，相反，倒成就了共产党的借口，给了他们以口实。也许是民主权利的运动，但因为采取的方式不正确，就无法获得主动和人民的支持。对共产党的腐败，我们自己都在反对，更别提少数民族的声音了。要是因为这个原因，我们以后所采取的方式应该是和平的，有序的，有组织纪律的民主权利斗争。请你们切记这一点，我们反对共产党，或者是还不反对但是要她整治腐败，都是希望中国强大，人民获得真正的自由，获得基本的生活保障，这才是正确的社会主义方向。很遗憾的是，共产党已经不是当初的共产党，他们歪曲了邓小平的话，十几年来走上了与人民背道而驰的道路。她的腐化堕落有目共睹，已经不适宜继续做执政党。所以我们要反对她。而不是要杀掉这些人，我们只是要他们下台，放下手里的权力，让新的政党来接替，把被共产党搞混乱的国家重新整治起来。抚慰受伤的人民和疮痍的大地。为中华的真正振兴蓄力。一个国家要真正富强，民生最重要，人民得有生计，得快乐，生活才能有希望。如果广大人民的生活都处于奔波，痛苦和威胁中，民不聊生，国家敛财，这个国家怎么能够长久存在，稳定发展呢？同样的道理，少数民族的和平安居要得于能有空间来发展独特的民族产业，得于国家给以的优惠政策，得于让利的合作项目以帮助他们，如果是以经济发展的目的把他们的民族产业都排挤掉了，少数民族失去了赖以生存的经济来源，他们如何能够忍受而又不起来抗争呢？

On the intensification of ethnic conflicts in Xinjiang, we can not put all the blame on the brothers Uygur. Although they take a wrong move, but we Chinese people can not control our emotions also kill some of them, it is equally wrong. The result of these two errors leads to a big tragedy. The correct way is to avoid the turmoil of the place at that time, waiting for the police to control the situation. At that time the police should appeared in the first line, not us, the ordinary residents of the Han people ran into even greater chaos zone to cause casualties. Take up arms to prevent injury should be the correct doing, but use the way of killing to kill life, we do not have this right. Incident has over, we should reflect on it. The outbreak of the problem in Xinjiang is not a single event. Uygur and Han nationality live together for such a long time there were no large-scale conflict, why this happened in this year, it should not be an accidental. Although I have not been there, knew nothing about the local situation, but we can say with certainty, where the last outbreak of violence, is where the national policy must not be push a good implementation and failed to resolve the various conflicts and frictions and misunderstandings in a timely manner, resulting in stress accumulation. Why do so many young people listen to热比娅, then pick up the dagger rush ahead to kill the Han people, there will be justified. Why 热比娅 had successes as a businessman, was elected as the people's deputy, she could enjoy the honor and wealth, but began to oppose the Chinese, the practice of the Communist Party should be the reason which stirred up the discontent. Perhaps occupy the interests of the Uygur’ traditional industries, perhaps in terms of ideology discrimination to Uygur. I used to think that our policy is tilted towards minorities, but only when I heard the Uygur in Guangdong and many other places subject to discrimination and unequal treatment, I was surprised. At the same time understand why Uygur get together to fight for. But I must point out their way of protest is very wrong. There should be a peaceful assembly or activity. The conduct of campaign of violence can not achieve effective results, on the contrary, reversing the achievements to the Communist Party an excuse to defense them. This is perhaps originally a democratic activity, but because the approach is not correct, it then will not be able to get the initiative and the support of the people. To the Corruption of the Communist Party, the opposite voice even on our own, not to mention the voice of the minority. If for this reason that we take after the way should be some peaceful, orderly, organized struggles with the democratic rights of discipline. Ask you to bear in mind this point, we are opposing to the Communist Party, or not oppose but demand to restrict corruption, but only with a strong hope that the Chinese people's access to real freedom, access to basic necessities for living, this is the right direction of socialism. Unfortunately, the Communist Party is not like the first one before, they distorted the words of Deng Xiaoping, more than a decade, they ran counter to the road against people. Corruption for all to seen of her. So the ruling party had been unfit to continue to master the rights. Therefore, we have to oppose her. Rather than to kill these people, we are only asking them to step down, to lay down their power, so that a new political party can replace the chaos of the Communist Party and to engaged in the national re-regulation. Soothe the injured people and the destroyed lands for the savings of revitalization of China. A prosperous and powerful country it can becomes, the most important aspect is people's livelihood, the people must have a living, a happy life, and then there be hopes. If the majority of the people live in the rush, pain and threat People living in dire poverty, the state only collect money, how can this country own a long and stable development? Similarly, minority live peaceful in their hometown comes from to have a unique space to develop national industry, was from given preferential treatment in the country, was from have let to the cooperation projects which help them, if the purpose of economic development based on crowd out their national industries, the minority lost their source of survival, how they can endure that but not to get together to fight for their livings?  





Alven
18/08/09
作者: niuniu1    时间: 2009-8-19 09:39
标题: si tu l'écrivais en français, ta écriture pourrait été publiée par LeSo
si tu l'écrivais en français, ta écriture pourrait être publiée par LeSoleil!
作者: Wayance    时间: 2009-8-19 09:47
晕倒！不懂装懂
Post by alven2009;2335180
关于新疆的民族矛盾激化，我们不能完全责怪维族的兄弟。尽管他们采取了错误的举动，但是我们汉族人没能控制自己的情绪，也同样杀了他们的人，也同样是错误的。这两个错误的结果导致了大悲剧的发生。正确的做法应该是避开当时发生动乱的场所，等待警方来控制局面。那个时候应该是警方出现在第一线，而不是我们汉族的普通居民冲到混乱地带造成更大的伤亡。拿起武器防止被伤害是应该的，但是去用残杀的方式杀害生命，我们没有这个权利。事件已经过去，我们应该进行反思。新疆问题的爆发不是一个单一的事件。维族与汉族共处了这么长时间没有发生大规模的冲突，为什么今年发生了，这应该不是偶然的。我虽然没有去过那里，对当地的情势一无所知，但可以肯定地讲，那里的民族政策一定没能很好的落实，多年各种矛盾摩擦和误解没能及时解决，导致了紧张压力的积累，最后爆发了暴力事件。为什么那么多的维族青年听从了热比娅的话，拿起匕首向我们汉族人冲杀，一定有他们的道理。为什么热比娅曾经作为一个成功的商人，被选为人大代表，她可以安享荣誉和财富，却仍要反对汉人，应该是共产党的做法激起了不满。或许在利益上侵占了维族的传统产业，或许在思想上歧视维族，本来以为我们的政策是对少数民族倾斜的，但是听到了维族在广东和其他很多地方受到歧视和不平等待遇，我感到很惊讶。同时也理解了维族为什么要起来抗争。但是要指出的是，他们那种抗争方式是非常错误的。应该进行和平的集会或活动。暴力运动的行为不能达到有效的结果，相反，倒成就了共产党的借口，给了他们以口实。也许是民主权利的运动，但因为采取的方式不正确，就无法获得主动和人民的支持。对共产党的腐败，我们自己都在反对，更别提少数民族的声音了。要是因为这个原因，我们以后所采取的方式应该是和平的，有序的，有组织纪律的民主权利斗争。请你们切记这一点，我们反对共产党，或者是还不反对但是要她整治腐败，都是希望中国强大，人民获得真正的自由，获得基本的生活保障，这才是正确的社会主义方向。很遗憾的是，共产党已经不是当初的共产党，他们歪曲了邓小平的话，十几年来走上了与人民背道而驰的道路。她的腐化堕落有目共睹，已经不适宜继续做执政党。所以我们要反对她。而不是要杀掉这些人，我们只是要他们下台，放下手里的权力，让新的政党来接替，把被共产党搞混乱的国家重新整治起来。抚慰受伤的人民和疮痍的大地。为中华的真正振兴蓄力。一个国家要真正富强，民生最重要，人民得有生计，得快乐，生活才能有希望。如果广大人民的生活都处于奔波，痛苦和威胁中，民不聊生，国家敛财，这个国家怎么能够长久存在，稳定发展呢？同样的道理，少数民族的和平安居要得于能有空间来发展独特的民族产业，得于国家给以的优惠政策，得于让利的合作项目以帮助他们，如果是以经济发展的目的把他们的民族产业都排挤掉了，少数民族失去了赖以生存的经济来源，他们如何能够忍受而又不起来抗争呢？

On the intensification of ethnic conflicts in Xinjiang, we can not put all the blame on the brothers Uygur. Although they take a wrong move, but we Chinese people can not control our emotions also kill some of them, it is equally wrong. The result of these two errors leads to a big tragedy. The correct way is to avoid the turmoil of the place at that time, waiting for the police to control the situation. At that time the police should appeared in the first line, not us, the ordinary residents of the Han people ran into even greater chaos zone to cause casualties. Take up arms to prevent injury should be the correct doing, but use the way of killing to kill life, we do not have this right. Incident has over, we should reflect on it. The outbreak of the problem in Xinjiang is not a single event. Uygur and Han nationality live together for such a long time there were no large-scale conflict, why this happened in this year, it should not be an accidental. Although I have not been there, knew nothing about the local situation, but we can say with certainty, where the last outbreak of violence, is where the national policy must not be push a good implementation and failed to resolve the various conflicts and frictions and misunderstandings in a timely manner, resulting in stress accumulation. Why do so many young people listen to热比娅, then pick up the dagger rush ahead to kill the Han people, there will be justified. Why 热比娅 had successes as a businessman, was elected as the people's deputy, she could enjoy the honor and wealth, but began to oppose the Chinese, the practice of the Communist Party should be the reason which stirred up the discontent. Perhaps occupy the interests of the Uygur’ traditional industries, perhaps in terms of ideology discrimination to Uygur. I used to think that our policy is tilted towards minorities, but only when I heard the Uygur in Guangdong and many other places subject to discrimination and unequal treatment, I was surprised. At the same time understand why Uygur get together to fight for. But I must point out their way of protest is very wrong. There should be a peaceful assembly or activity. The conduct of campaign of violence can not achieve effective results, on the contrary, reversing the achievements to the Communist Party an excuse to defense them. This is perhaps originally a democratic activity, but because the approach is not correct, it then will not be able to get the initiative and the support of the people. To the Corruption of the Communist Party, the opposite voice even on our own, not to mention the voice of the minority. If for this reason that we take after the way should be some peaceful, orderly, organized struggles with the democratic rights of discipline. Ask you to bear in mind this point, we are opposing to the Communist Party, or not oppose but demand to restrict corruption, but only with a strong hope that the Chinese people's access to real freedom, access to basic necessities for living, this is the right direction of socialism. Unfortunately, the Communist Party is not like the first one before, they distorted the words of Deng Xiaoping, more than a decade, they ran counter to the road against people. Corruption for all to seen of her. So the ruling party had been unfit to continue to master the rights. Therefore, we have to oppose her. Rather than to kill these people, we are only asking them to step down, to lay down their power, so that a new political party can replace the chaos of the Communist Party and to engaged in the national re-regulation. Soothe the injured people and the destroyed lands for the savings of revitalization of China. A prosperous and powerful country it can becomes, the most important aspect is people's livelihood, the people must have a living, a happy life, and then there be hopes. If the majority of the people live in the rush, pain and threat People living in dire poverty, the state only collect money, how can this country own a long and stable development? Similarly, minority live peaceful in their hometown comes from to have a unique space to develop national industry, was from given preferential treatment in the country, was from have let to the cooperation projects which help them, if the purpose of economic development based on crowd out their national industries, the minority lost their source of survival, how they can endure that but not to get together to fight for their livings?





Alven
18/08/09
作者: Wayance    时间: 2009-8-19 09:52
可以发表到大纪元是肯定的！
Post by niuniu1;2335504
si tu l'écrivais en français, ta écriture pourrait être publiée par LeSoleil!
作者: alven2009    时间: 2009-8-23 23:37
标题: 观点对最主要
发不发表不重要，你有不同观点也可以论述出来。客观能为大家认同的观点最重要。

Alven
23/08/09
作者: Wayance    时间: 2009-8-25 01:52
好吧，那又要浪费我的时间了。
“关于新疆的民族矛盾激化，我们不能完全责怪维族的兄弟。尽管他们采取了错误的举动，但是我们汉族人没能控制自己的情绪，也同样杀了他们的人，也同样是错误的。这两个错误的结果导致了大悲剧的发生。”
我不知道你是口误还是有意的这样写“这两个错误的结果导致了大悲剧的发生。”可请你注意一个事实，所谓的大悲剧，无论是新闻媒体，还是政府以及大家茶余饭后所谈论的都是指”7月五号“那一天发生的，对汉人打砸抢杀的大骚乱，而你的一句“这两个错误的结果导致了大悲剧的发生。”把性质完全扭曲了，把前因后果颠倒了。你觉得我能认同你吗？当然如果你只是口误，那我不怪你。是我太苛刻了。。。
“正确的做法应该是避开当时发生动乱的场所，等待警方来控制局面。那个时候应该是警方出现在第一线，而不是我们汉族的普通居民冲到混乱地带造成更大的伤亡。拿起武器防止被伤害是应该的，但是去用残杀的方式杀害生命，我们没有这个权利。”
第二句也是同样的问题，你还没搞清楚状况，是因为“7.5”那天汉人被屠杀了，后来的几天汉人才反击的，而且很快被警察制止了。你说的所谓的“两个错误的结果”不是同一天“结”的“果”，是先有前面的“果”才有后面的“果”。:wink:
“。。。新疆问题的爆发不是一个单一的事件。维族与汉族共处了这么长时间没有发生大规模的冲突，为什么今年发生了”
你这段话是有很大的逻辑问题的，逻辑关系混乱，你自己体味吧。再者，“疆独”是年年都有发生的，只不过政府没有报道摆了。如果再追究到历史个个朝代几乎都有冲突，近代的“回回之乱”就够血腥的了。千万汉人无辜死于刀下。。。
你还有一个论调就是汉人把他们的”传统产业”都挤掉了。那我想问一问你，什么是新疆人的传统产业？一直以来，他们都是以畜牧业为生的，谁挤掉他们的畜牧业了？他们的烤羊肉串都买到全国各地了，还不够支持他们吗？每年中央拨出巨款投资，连“世维会”的头目都承认国家对新疆的建设了，你确还在这里不着边际的乱弹。（还有很多国家“支疆”的政策没办法和你讨论更别提深入了，我会疯掉的，啊～～～～～）
你还拿广东发生的事件说事，可你知道吗，此事传到维人的耳边时，已经被别有用心的人放大和窜改了，加油添醋说，死了多少，被被强奸了多少。所以才会引起普通“维”人的愤怒的。
其实，我清楚你的主题，也就是想打倒共产党，但拜托，请先作点功课，不要再让我在这里扫盲了。好不好
临结束，我再鸡婆一句，“客观能为大家认同的观点最重要。”这也是一句病到姥姥家的病句。不过很适合“大纪元”。
去投稿吧



Post by alven2009;2341565
发不发表不重要，你有不同观点也可以论述出来。客观能为大家认同的观点最重要。

Alven
23/08/09
作者: alven2009    时间: 2009-8-26 05:36
标题: 民族问题续
维族人进行了骚乱，杀了汉人是前因，汉族人反击是后果，事实是清楚的，我一点没有扭曲这个事件的性质，没有说汉人先杀了维族人，顺序并没颠倒。虽然不是同 一天发生的，但应视为一个整体事件。我强调的是汉人不应该进行暴力反击和报复，所采取的方式是加剧混乱和危险的，是错误的。
       如果世维会也承认国家对新疆的建设，那他们为什么又带领维族人制造暴乱呢，这不是前后矛盾吗？
       广东歧视维族人的事我也是听说，还是让广东人来讲吧，他们应该更清楚。不过这也是很大的一个原因。不要说普通维族人很愤怒，我这个普通汉族人也愤怒。
每年国家的拨款和政策扶助新疆发展，问题是这些拨款有没有真正落实到维族人手里，政策有没有对路，僵不僵化，适不适应新疆新的发展方向？给没给他们带来实 质上的好处？如果是的话，新疆维族应该安居乐业的。可为什么发展来发展去，新疆反倒闹起来了呢？ 这就证明发展的不好。发展不好的原因又是什么？
民族问题是敏感的，处理要非常耐心，多花点时间在这个很重要的问题上把情况搞清楚是值得的。应该多作作功课从媒体上了解情况，但我更希望能听到生活在新疆的汉族和维族人讲当地的情况，这样更真实。您能有更清楚的认识多讲讲更好，不只是对我，还有很多其他人可能也想听。
       远古各朝代民族战乱不宜追究，不适宜加强民族和解。
       大纪元我还不了解，我只是说我的想法，你为什么总想让我到他们那投稿呢？





Alven

26/08/09
作者: Wayance    时间: 2009-8-26 09:35
很好，此帖条理清晰多了。先前之所以说你可以投稿到大纪元，是因为你的行文风格与其情投意合。一个事件前因后果交代得避重就轻，忽略了问题的实质，而得出的结论往往生安硬套。
比如说，“大悲剧”和你后面交代的“一个整体事件”性质完全不同。这里需要明确指出的是，汉人的反击没有造成“大悲剧”，大悲剧是维族暴乱直接造成的，这点大家要清楚！
承认对新疆的经济建设成就是一个“世维会”的头目在哈萨克斯坦（不能确定）电视台的一个访谈节目上在事实面前逼迫承认的。就是早前的新闻报道，你要是有兴趣，应该可以查询得到。
我没有否认广东工厂里的歧视维族人的事件，虽然里面的前因后果也相当复杂。但如果这件事情被谣传者放大，说维民们男的多少多少被杀，女的多少多少被强奸。那我想，如果这次暴乱是因此事而起的话，那因负同等责任的，因该是谣言者。共产党负的另不半责任是因为新闻不透明令谣言得逞。（仅此这件事，别的事件，新闻不透明带来的责任更大！）
政府对新疆的经济发展是毋庸置疑的，但对文化发展却碍着西方舆论及“世维会”等东突极端分子的抨击而束手束脚。是问哪个国家的子民不需要懂得他国家的官方语言？然而政府在新疆
推广普通话就被说成文化清洗。长期以来维民没有总视的文化，对普通话的学习而被国家边缘化。广东工厂里的维族人被杀从某种程度来说就是因为语言的沟通问题造成的。
所以，在新疆，维汉的矛盾除了民族差异，其实更应该理解为长期以来已畜牧业为主的维民们面对城市，面对现代工业发展的抵触，因为他们没有文化不懂说汉语，所以没有从经济发展中获得更多的好处。很大程度是因为必然的历史进程让他们难堪了。
Post by alven2009;2343919
维族人进行了骚乱，杀了汉人是前因，汉族人反击是后果，事实是清楚的，我一点没有扭曲这个事件的性质，没有说汉人先杀了维族人，顺序并没颠倒。虽然不是同 一天发生的，但应视为一个整体事件。我强调的是汉人不应该进行暴力反击和报复，所采取的方式是加剧混乱和危险的，是错误的。
如果世维会也承认国家对新疆的建设，那他们为什么又带领维族人制造暴乱呢，这不是前后矛盾吗？
广东歧视维族人的事我也是听说，还是让广东人来讲吧，他们应该更清楚。不过这也是很大的一个原因。不要说普通维族人很愤怒，我这个普通汉族人也愤怒。
每年国家的拨款和政策扶助新疆发展，问题是这些拨款有没有真正落实到维族人手里，政策有没有对路，僵不僵化，适不适应新疆新的发展方向？给没给他们带来实 质上的好处？如果是的话，新疆维族应该安居乐业的。可为什么发展来发展去，新疆反倒闹起来了呢？ 这就证明发展的不好。发展不好的原因又是什么？
民族问题是敏感的，处理要非常耐心，多花点时间在这个很重要的问题上把情况搞清楚是值得的。应该多作作功课从媒体上了解情况，但我更希望能听到生活在新疆的汉族和维族人讲当地的情况，这样更真实。您能有更清楚的认识多讲讲更好，不只是对我，还有很多其他人可能也想听。
远古各朝代民族战乱不宜追究，不适宜加强民族和解。
大纪元我还不了解，我只是说我的想法，你为什么总想让我到他们那投稿呢？





Alven

26/08/09




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