dmdmd

Zeek, you quoted:
即使在美国，我也亲耳听见一个白人对我说：I think they(美国西医) kill more than cure。

I have seen rebellious and ignorant caucasian patients too. Don't tell me that whatever coming out of the mouth of a caucasian is absolutely correct.
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You mentioned:
基本上，这里的医生并不会看病，他们全靠各种各样昂贵的医疗器械装备起来，

We need a diagnosis before starting a treatment. This is especially true for cancers. You don't want to put a patient on chemotherapy before you are 100% of the diagnosis. 在沒確定, 您怎麼可隨便開始治療. 是不是很盲目?! 我外公就是被這些試試看, 沒確定的亂治療的人給拖得錯過時機的. 我外公還活著. 天啊, 謝謝您! 不過他以前是個很健壯的人, 現在變得連晚上要起來小便都要人扶. 這是不是比死了還痛苦. 一個人變得事事都要家人幫忙是不是給自己(會自責)和家人一個很重的負擔?!
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另外一点我最讨厌的是，西医最喜欢动刀，但凡是西医诊断不了的病痛，西医就会开刀做手术打开来看，然后有小小问题，他们都会毫不犹豫的一刀砍掉，斩草除根，除恶务净。所以如果阁下得了癌症的话，千万不要看西医治疗，否则那些手术开刀，化疗放射疗，这样折腾下来，你死得加儿倍的快

請您不要亂講話. 癌症並不每種都可開的. 這在於癌症的種類(histoloy, grade)還有staging(是不是別的器官有沒有被滲入). 這還決定於病人的身體是不是可接受那樣的治療(手術, chemo, radio, hormone,...). 您怎麼可說西醫什麼都要開刀呢?! 並且您可知道有一些癌症以前是必死的現在是curable?!
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我觉得中医是最好的选择，中医有五千年的历史，自成体系，五千年来，中国人没有这样那样的先进医疗设备，不是也什麽病都治了吗？SARS这麽历害，西医治得了吗？钟南山说70%治愈的sars病人是自己痊愈的，而广东是实行中西医治疗的。

Oh yeah?! The chinese government just wanted to hide it. 中醫有什麼文獻?! 我是指那些有control group, large sample的studies. 我知道很多中國的學生都是讀研究的. 請問社麼是well-controlled studies? 西醫就是依照這些來做決定.
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dmdmd,你说你的爷爷差点就给中医害死了，那他现在死了吗？不是还活得好好的吗？时间不是证明了中医的有效吗？你爷爷只是有惊无险，你可知道这个论坛里有多少人无辜辜地做了加拿大优越制度的亡魂吗？

中醫當然有效. 不過請問您願意每天晚上拉他起來小便嗎especially he takes diuretic(利尿劑)?
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終歸一句, 要多看new scientific publications, go to conferences, discuss with specialists. 這樣才會走在前端. 不要以為中國5000年的歷史. 您一直都在說中醫醫好的多少人, 您知不知道他在多少的病人裡面醫好的多少個? 也就是說被害死的他們都不講. 您說西醫都使用最貴的儀器, 我覺得本來就是要用最準的儀器. 醫科每天都在改進. 您不進就是您倒退了.

我覺得您自己不相信就算了. 我知道讀中醫的在這裡不的重用. 但是請不要誤導別人.

dmdmd

Yeah right, your arguments are not convincing at all. I feel sorry for you being in Canada which has a health care so much hated by you. Too bad, I guess you are in the wrong place.

Physicians in North American only treat symptoms?! I really don't know where you got this from. Ok, tell me how you would treat an acute coronary syndrome with TCM, how would you treat a sepsis, how would you treat, let say, a lung cancer with SVC syndrome, how would you treat a shock?

Forget the pulse palpating. How can tell one women is pregnant simply by taking her pulse. Come on, that's ridiculous. Open your eyes and your mind to the new technologies and discoveries.

The "litterature" quoted by you are not well-controlled studies at all and they are rather obslete. You can not treated a patient based on a case report. You NEED a large sample with a control group. Ask your PhD fellows. They know what essential requirements a publication in a well known journal such as New English Journal of Medicine or Nature needs. Furthermore, as I have mentionned before, if you stay on the same spot, other people will surpass you! So keep yourself up to date.

As a matter of fact, had it been not for TCM, you won't be here talking to me in the first place, because it's TCM that gave health to generations of Chinese--including your ancestor... AND ALSO IT HAS RUINED SO MANY PEOPLE'S HEALTH THAT YOU DID NOT MENTION.
Traditional medicine saved my grandpa? Are you aware of the golden time before the brain cells or heart cells die? You need thrombolysis and do it fast, as fast as possible. Once this golden time gone, the damages are irreversible. Where is your physiology, your pathology?

关于你的外公，i feel sorry about him, 但这里有两种可能，一种是他的病本来会致命的，但被他的中医把他从鬼门关前拉了回来，那现在的情况已算是万幸，你也应该知足了。

人還是活的, 所以我應該滿足了. Wow, 您自己還真容易滿足, 看來對自己的要求不是很高. 我如果有病沒被您醫死了我就應該滿足了, 對吧? 所以我外公這個case, 中醫有沒有把他完全醫好都是有功無過嘍?!

医生离开了设备就不会看病，即使看了也只是头痛医头脚痛医脚。医生轻易不敢下结论，怕下错了结论被人告。或者不论什么病都不管三七二十一都全套检查，怕万一漏检一样又医错病被人抓住把柄。医疗保险太高，高得甚至让某些专科的医生难于维持下去

亂講. 您又沒在這裡的醫院工作過. 不要亂講. 我們要的是在治療前有個準確的診斷, 這樣才可有個有效的治療. 您怎麼把它說到法律上去了呢? 真是的. 是不是以前有些人亂用antibiotics to treat common colds which are caused by viruses. Viruses do not respond to antibiotics. 所以現在有些bugs都難治療了, 比如說Enterococcus, Staph aureus.

就拿我今天看的一個病人來講, admitted for progressive SVC syndrome (compression of SVC by mediastinal mass of undetermined origin), 雖然這個mass很可能是lung cancer. 而且我們以前做過很多比較不invasive的檢驗(bronchoscopy with biopsy, transoesophageal echography with biopsy, mediastinoscopy with biopsy). 但是unfortunately結果不是很準確因為it was difficult. 雖然我們可馬上開始radiotherapy to decompress the SVC syndrome. 但是thoraci surgeon還是決定馬上用開胸手術做割片(biopsy)以便確定真的是肺癌. 要不然你如果馬上用radiotherapy, 如果不是癌症的話, 可能會沒有效用. 第二點, you would expose the patient to unnecessary X-ray and chemotherapy with all the serious side effects. 所以我們需要一個準確的診斷才可開始治療. 這樣治療才會有效.

或只能用过时的药，因为最新的药太贵付担不起

這也是亂講. 誰說最新最貴的藥就是最好的?! Aspirin is still taken by many people.

It may seem that here physicians take more time to take a case history. But we do it with reason because we can to narrow down our differential diagnosis as much as possible before ordering any imageries or lab tests. Anyways, Well, I start being tired of this useless and endless discussion. I have other things more interesting to do.

tmd 4

算了, dmdmd我支持你. 你不用跟zeek争, 等他自己生病了, 看他是相信仪器的诊断结果还是相信中医吧.

zeek你对西医的偏见到了偏执的程度, 其实发达国家里, 哪个是承认中医的? 中医在当代的发展还得多谢人均寿命最长的日本人. 我虽然也有点相信中医对慢性病的调养, 不排除有奇迹出现的可能, 但是毕竟那个东东还是很悬. 听国内老人说, 以前的好中医倒是不少, 现在国内很难找到能治好病的中医了.

说到西医他们相信仪器是不假, 病人难道不相信仪器吗? 没有结果谁愿意糊里糊涂挨一刀? "动不动就动刀"? 又是一大误解. 我一老外朋友的母亲上星期心口痛, 半夜去了医院, 医院留她住院了一星期(西岛某医院条件: 2个人的病房, 配有电话有线电视, 食物也不错), 用了各种test, 终于查出来是心脏某部分有个血拴. 解决方法也没有动什么刀, 而是给她血管里放了个baloon(我也不懂中文怎么说, 估计是扩张血管去除那个block的). 这星期就出院了, 还要1个月的药物配合治疗.

如果生病了, 能享受这样的治疗, 不是一种福气吗!

dmdmd

TMD4,the procedure aiming to dilate the obstructed coronary artery is called PTCA (angioplasty). This should be done as quickly as possible. Otherwise, the heart muscle will die. With TCM, you can not save a tissue that quickly. You either go with PTCA or bypass surgery or eventual heart failure. But the whole decision making is quite complicate. Honestly I am not very familiar with that and need to study a little more.

Who is treating the symptoms? Traditional medicine or acupuncture is mainly used to relieve pain. It may have some placebo effects. It RELIEVES pain (one symptom) but DOES NOT TREAT or CURE cancer (the underlying pathology). Another example, for a bacterial pneumonie you will need antibiotics to CURE it. But you can also relieve the symptoms (giving oxygen, Tylenol to relieve fever,...). So, you should aim to cure first by using antibiotics and then after come symptom relieving.

tmd 4

zeek, 别倚老卖老好不好, 动不动叫别人kids, 虽然从你不相信科学这一点上, 就可以闻到老朽的味道. 我记得当初我爷爷最后生病的时候, 也不肯定去医院检查, 众儿女说服不了他, 只得在家里照顾到他去世. 虽然可能他去医院看病的结果不是绝对的好(不排除痈医的可能), 但认识很多亲朋也经历过手术台康复出来了(当然不能说100%), 那还是在国内. 我相信这里的医疗水平更高, 这点你只要看看国人平均寿命就知道了, 加拿大是79点几.

关于医学实验的丑闻, 当然是真的, 就现在社会而言, 那些人体实验已经是最后一步, 目的却是为了造福更多的人. 这边MCGill经常在报纸上找有偿的实验者. 可是就中医而言, 不见得好多少, 最近还读到过一篇中药毒性反而大的文章. 而且喝没有明确断论的中药(因为具体人的配方都可能不同), 你本身就是一个被实验者.  

我很少生病, 来加两年从没去过CLSC什么的. 虽然也知道这里因为公费医疗的缘故, 看小病慢了一点, 却也不象国内乱开进口抗生素. 总之对这里的医疗更放心.

tmd 4

说你偏激还不服, 经历得多不等于正确. 如果科学治死的人比治活的人多, 还有谁敢去医院呢? 事实上无论国内或这里, 医院都是非常人满为患的. 我身边的亲朋, 得了病从医院康复回来的远比不治而亡的多.

我并非贬低祖国医学, 只是一来西方世界不承认中医, 二来现在好而有效的中医越来越少. 西医有理论依据, 虽然不是100%有效, 但是大多常见病还是见效快的, 象我老外朋友母亲的心脏问题, 换作中医难说一周就能找到病因. 我说过了, 医疗的有效问题, 看看人家西方国家的平均寿命就知道了.

当然类似你的那位老外朋友的故事我们听说的也不少, 特别是国内宣传中医的时候. 毕竟那老外是用中医是把自己当死马医, 有效果当然是运气, 没效果他也不会怨中医.

关于毒性的问题, 是药三分毒, 也别迷信中药, 转一篇文章看看就知道了:

中医药学对中草药毒性的认识

　　一、中医药学对中草药毒性的定义
　　
　　中医药学对中草药毒性的认识有广义和狭义之分。广义中草药毒性泛指一切中草药的作用或中草药的偏性。中医药学认为中药的毒性具有普遍性，凡是药物都是有毒的。张景岳明确指出：“药以治病，因毒为能，所谓毒者，以气味之有偏也。盖气味之正者，谷食之属是也，所以养人之正气。气味之偏者，药饵之属是也。所以祛人之邪气。其为故也，正以人之为病，病在阴阳偏胜耳。欲救其偏，则唯气味之偏者能之，正者不及也……是凡可避邪安正者，均可称为毒药”。狭义的毒性指药物对人体的毒害性，即指服用后容易引起毒副反应的中草药。隋代巢原方在《诸葛亮病源候论·卷二十六》中所言：“凡药物云有毒及有大毒者，皆能变乱，于人为害，亦能杀人”。我国历代本草及现行国家药典将部分药物标明“大毒”、“有毒”、“小毒”，而对一般药物不注明是否有毒，即是根据狭义的中草药毒性而限定的。
　　
　　二、产生中草药毒性的原因
　　
　　虽然中草药因其毒副作用小而深受广大患者的喜爱，然而不可否认的是目前有关中草药毒性的报道愈来愈多。引起中草药毒性的原因较为复杂，归纳起来有以下几个方面：1缺乏对中草药毒性的认识。特别是目前许多江湖医生打着偏方、验方的旗号，迎合许多慢性患者急于将慢性病治愈的心理，滥用中草药治疗各种疾病。2随意加大药物剂量。各种药物都有一定的剂量范围，剂量过大，超出人体的耐受极限，必然产生毒副反应。如关木通的的常用量为3～9克，在目前国内报道因服用关木通导致急性肾功能衰竭的8例患者(其中6例死亡)中，所服木通的用量分别为60～66克5例，120克1例，200克1例，25克连服10剂1例。3药物名称的混淆。如木通有关木通(马兜铃科)及川木通(毛莨科)之分，具有肾毒性的是关木通，但一般药店对木通不加特殊说明。又如汉防己(粉防己)为防己科植物防己的干燥根，无肾损害。而广防己(木防己)为马兜铃科植物含马兜铃酸成分，有可能造成肾间质损害。4长时间服药。长时间服用同一种中草药也可能导致肾毒性。如最近笔者所在医院肾内科病房收治了一例长期口服中药“龙胆泻肝丸”导致慢性肾间质损害的患者，最终进入慢性肾功能不全尿毒症期，从病史、症状及化验检查分析，笔者高度怀疑为中草药肾损害(因患者肾脏已经萎缩，无法进行肾活检证实)。5不合理的中西药并用。中西药合用如组方合理可收到良好的治疗效果，但也有可能产生毒副作用，如1990～1992年，比利时有105名妇女在同一诊所服用了一种叫“苗条丸”(主要成分为芬氟拉明、安菲拉酮、防己、厚朴等)的减肥药1～2年后，其中有近70人进入慢性肾为功能不全尿毒症期，靠血液透析或肾移植维持生命，就不能排除此因素。6药证不符。如人参用于正常人，少量可以适应，长期大量应用则会致病。7配伍不当。如违反中药“十八反”、“十九畏”等配伍禁忌。8其他如药物制作工艺的粗糙等。
　　
　　三、中医克服中草药毒性的方法
　　
　　中医药基于对中草药毒性的认识，采取了许多行之有效的办法以控制中草药的毒性，常用的方法有：

　　1、辨证用药。通过四诊合参，辨明病因、病机。然后确定治则、方药，以减少药不对证所致的毒副作用，中医的辨证用药是保证用药安全的有效方法之一。

??2、讲究组方配伍。中药组方严格按“君、臣、佐、使”的原则，方中既有治疗主证的君药，又有协助君药治疗主证的臣药，特别是方中还有辅助君药治疗兼证或减轻君药毒副作用的佐药及引经与调和诸药的使药。中药“君、臣、佐、使”的组方原则为减少中药的毒副作用提供了一条有效途径，大部分方剂配伍得当可减少有毒中草药的毒性或改变有毒中草药成分在体内的存在状况。如二陈汤中以生姜制半夏之毒。

??3、正确炮制减毒。在中医药的长期实践过程中，积累了许多减毒增效、转变药性的炮制方法和经验，并形成了中医学的一重要分支学科——中药炮制学。正确的炮制方法可减轻中草药的毒副作用，此乃中医药的一大特色。

??4、控制用药剂量。一般来讲，药物的剂量和其毒副反应的程度有直接关系，“中病即止”是前人保证用药安全的重要原则。在现代中药药理中更是明确提出了“极量”或“临界量”准确界限。

??5、改变煎药方法。通过不同的煎药方法如先煎、后下、溶化(烊化)、另炖或另煎、冲服等，达到增强中草药的疗效、减轻中草药的毒副作用的目的。
　　
　　四、中医药对中草药毒性认识的某些局限性
　　
　　中医药不但不否认中草药的毒性，而且对中草药的毒性问题有深刻的认识。我国第一部中药专著《神农本草经》载药365种，就是按药物的有毒无毒、养身延年及祛邪治病的不同，分为上、中、下三品。以后代历本草虽不再采用“三品”分类法，但在具体的药物上均有有毒无毒的药性说明，并记载了各种药物适应症、炮制方法、临床经验，并总结出配伍用药的“十八反”、“十九畏”、妊娠禁忌及服药禁忌等注意事项，在目前的国家药典中，除一般无明显毒副作用的药物外，将有毒的药物按三级划分，分别注明为“小毒”、“有毒”、“大毒”，有些药物还特别注明了其肾毒性及肝毒性等。
　　
　　然而，对中草药毒性的认识还存在某些局限性，主要表现在：1目前国家药典中虽然对有毒中药分别注明为“小毒”、“有毒”、“大毒”和“无毒”四类，但其数据的界定大都未在GLP(药品非临床研究质量管理规范)条件下、未按SOP(标准操作规程)规范进行严格的实验结果而得出的结论，因而，所谓“无毒”中药可能有一定的毒性。2中药化学成分复杂，作用部位不太明确，而复方中药的成分、作用部位及途径更加复杂，因而对大多数有毒中草药的作用机制至今不清楚。3中医虽然对诸如乌头、斑蝥等有毒中草药的认识较清楚，古往今来善用有毒中草药者也很多。如张仲景善用附子、乌头、巴豆之峻。近代医家用毒性中草药治疗白血病、恶性肿瘤及艾滋病等，但对某些较常用中草药，如含有马兜铃酸成分的中草药的肾毒性问题，尚缺乏深入的认识。因而从某种意义讲，中草药毒性问题提出是对中草药毒副作用深入观察和研究的结果，应该说是认识上的一种进步。
　　
　　五、中医药如何面对挑战
　　
　　中草药毒性问题的提出，应该说给中医药的发展提出了挑战，甚至可能对中医药的发展带来不利影响。中医界必须有一个正确的认识，应重视它、研究它并最终科学地认识它。笔者认为药物有毒并不可怕，在临床上，有些药物如抗生素中的氨基糖甙类等，其肾毒性及耳毒很明显，但由于其毒副作用已为临床所熟悉并得到了应有的重视，因而得到了有效的防范，可怕的是对药物的毒性缺乏正确的认识甚至根本就没有认识，如20世纪60年代发生的“四环素牙”事件。从这个意义上讲，中草药毒性问题的提出，有助于消除中药无毒的观念，防止不合理使用中草药，如长时间用药、大剂量用药、违背中医炮制配伍规则及重复用药，特别是滥用所谓“偏方”、“秘方”等中草药有积极的作用。从一定意义上讲，更加有利中医药的发展。加强对中草药毒性问题的研究，重点包括：1流行病学调查、有毒性中草药的药物选择，特别是以前认为“无毒”，但随着时代的发展它的某些毒性被初步认识，如关木通的肾毒性问题。2建立符合GLP中药非临床安全评价中心。在GLP的条件下对药典记载的有毒中草药的概念进行毒理学阐明，包括有毒中药的毒性作用机理、用药剂量、有毒成分的含量测定等，并在GLPT条件下按SOP操作规范规定出大毒、小毒及有毒或最大药量范围。在GLP条件下确立每种有毒中草药的主要毒性成分及次要成分，以及这些物质在体内可能的存在状态和作用的靶器官等诸多方面。3建立科学的中草药毒性的临床诊断标准、中草药毒性的临床治疗及强化中药新药开发过程中急、慢性毒理实验的研究等。在产生中草药毒性的诸多因素中，长时间、大剂量服药是其中重要的一个方面。然而在临床过程中，据笔者临床所见，对一些常见病如感冒、外感咳嗽等，用药时间可能不会太长、药量亦不会太大，患者发生中草药毒性的机会也不太多。但对一些慢性疑难病如慢性肾炎、尿毒症、慢性肝炎、肝硬化、恶性肿瘤等，特别是对一些顽症采用所谓“以毒攻毒”的中草药治疗的病人，由于中药治疗没有明确的时间期限，患者可能长时间、大剂量服药，因而不可避免地增加药物的毒性，应当引起高度重视。

liu_zhuo

dmdmd 是个pig，拿人家的太太开这种玩笑，不知你是人还是畜生，滚回你的台湾去。

dmdmd

Zeek, each one can have his or her own view. If you decide to be treated by TCM, go for it and assume the consequences associated to that. Same for Westerne medicine, in which I believe. If I am sick, I go to emergency and wait like any of you, be treated there and assume all the negative sides of the treatment.

In one word, it's useless to brag how many people TCM have survived or cured so far, you need to DOCUMENT it and report clearly the protocol used and also the what type of patients were recruited in your studies so that others hostipals can repeat your studies. You can not trust case reports or some sporadic successes to establish treatment guidelines because one treatment can not necessarily be applied to all the patients of the same disease. You need to consider other parameters such as age, comorbidities (diabetes, pulmonary diseases,...) and also be certain of the diagnostic before drawing conclusion. TCM sometimes "cured" a disease, but are you really sure that the patient had that disease or that patient simply had other pathologies which can resolve spontaneously even without treamtment? Anyways, you need evidences and you have to report and let others decide if those evidences are credibles or not.

Secondly, all drugs (either western or chinese) are composed of molecules. The distinction with traditional or western is artificial. All drugs have certain toxicities. You can not say that all the chinese medicine are extracted from plants and therefore are safe. Some plants are toxic. Furthermore, TCM promote to 吃腦部腦, 吃鞭補雄. 您們會相信這嗎? 並且在報紙上看到很多家長把小孩補到青春期提前了. 好嗎? 我不會這樣. 因為青春期提前, 小孩會比較矮小(because growth plates ossify earlier due hormonal stimulation). Hum, 這樣的醫療會讓我有信心嗎? Botox is used at very low concentration and it's used for cosmetic reasons; no one forces you to take it.  Morphin is used because you have no choice: patients are in pain and you need to relieve them. However, before using morphin, there are other choices: tylenol, motrin, advil, empracet, anticonvulsivants (for neurological pains),... Out of doubts, chemotherapy is toxic but you don't want to be nice with cancer cells. You can cure with chemotherapy or use it as a adjuvant depending on the stage and type of the cancers.

有高血压的人吃了西药后十有八九会严重肾亏--你不用再打女人的主意了??? I don't get your point. You mean the drugs lower too much the pressure to cause prerenal hypotension? I guess it's quite rare because we already have trouble lowering the blood pressure. Sorry, I don't see the association between that and women?

治甲亢的药吃了会由亢变萎，整个一个retard.
Cretinism happens only to kids. The neurons do not divide anymore once you reach adulthood. Why does that cause mental retard? I don't get your point. Secondly, those drugs are not used in pregnant women.

今年的SARS，吃西药活过来的人纷纷传出肺纤维化和严重骨科病的后遗症。你还想要例证的话，我以后可以再继续找来给你看。

Personally I did not read too much about SARS. I can not answer your questions.

科学？有多少无辜的人是在科学的名义下白白的死去你知道吗？中医本质上既是一种哲学又是一种经验科学，几千年前中国人哪里有什麽手段可以作什麽实验出什麽数据作什麽报告？但这几千年来几十亿的中国人让中医作了无数的活体实验就证明了中医的科学性，

TCM is a medicine based on experience of our ancestors. But it's not well controlled. You have your answer here: 当然类似你的那位老外朋友的故事我们听说的也不少, 特别是国内宣传中医的时候. 毕竟那老外是用中医是把自己当死马医, 有效果当然是运气, 没效果他也不会怨中医. You never mention how many cases you have failed to treat.

奉劝你一句，有了病千万不要吃太多的西药，好了之后就马上停掉，宁愿相信自己的身体都不要相信这些药片。西人这麽多的‘drug dependent'就是这样来的。
You are simply misleading others right now and reject the benefits of western medicine. Tell your neighbour to stop taking antibiotics for her pneumonia and see the aftermath. One last point, you should always take the antibiotic for the FULL LENGTH of time prescribed because, be careful, multi-resistant may arise. If you have to take it for 10 days for pneumonia (you HAVE to take all the pills). If you have tuberculosis, you have to take it for 6-9 months. If not, your next infection may be resistant to that drug and don't tell us stuffs like: Oh, western physicians do not know how to treat patients or they gave me too many drugs for a simple medication and it will ruin my health or they don't prescribe my kid antibiotics and he has high fever and all (high fever does not automatically imply it's bacterial)..."

我在美国认识那个50多岁的白人患者(就是他说的西医kill more than cure)原来被西医断言只能活6个月，他不信这个邪，自己找中医看，结果活了几年还是生龙活虎，后来他干脆跑到FLORIDA 的一间中医学校从头开始学中医。
Up to him. Good to know that he is still alive because TCM has CURED his illness western medicine can not cure? His cancer is gone?
You can also take this the other way around. Why don't you say how many casese initially treated by TCM failed and people seek help in western medicine and get cured? Or cases of which TCM delayed the diagnosis and few can be done afterward?

BTW, Japan is very advanced in western medicine. They have a lot of publications.

Balloon, I did not mean to offend her. I was a little bit angry seeing people blasting the health system here. If the person feels offended, please accept my apology. The health system in Canada is slow because of limited resources and the governement assumes the costs. If you have $$$, you can go to Mayo clinic. There you will get your diagnosis and treatmen the same day. One stay in a hosptal in the US can empty your pocket (e.g. 7000$US for 3 days or maybe higher, not sure.) and here you can enjoy treatments of the same quality without paying a cent. So why complaining? Balloon, I will not answer any of your post anymore.

TMD4, guess we will stop arguing. It's pointless to continue. Some people are issuing personal attacks and I hate that. Furthermore, I am aware that some other more experienced physicians (either of TCM or western medicine) are out there reading our posts and laughing at our ignorance. Anyways, I admit that I have lots of things ahead of me to learn, I will do my best to keep myself up to date and offer my best.

dmdmd

Sorry, too many typo errors. Too late to edit. Here are the corrections.

有高血压的人吃了西药后十有八九会严重肾亏--你不用再打女人的主意了??? I don't get your point. You mean the drugs lower too much the pressure to cause acute prerenal kidney failure? I guess it's quite rare because we already have trouble lowering the blood pressure. Sorry, I don't see the association between that and women. Please explain.

奉劝你一句，有了病千万不要吃太多的西药，好了之后就马上停掉，宁愿相信自己的身体都不要相信这些药片。西人这麽多的‘drug dependent'就是这样来的。
You are simply misleading others right now and reject all the benefits of western medicine. Tell your neighbour to stop taking antibiotics for her pneumonia and see the aftermath. One last point, you should always take the antibiotic for the FULL LENGTH of time prescribed because, be careful, multi-resistant may arise. If you have to take it for 10 days for pneumonia, you HAVE to take all the pills prescribed. If you have tuberculosis, you have to take it for 6-9 months. Otherewise, your next infection may be resistant to that drug and by that time don't tell us stuffs like: Oh, canadian physicians do not know how to treat patients or they gave me too many drugs for a simple infection that chinese physicians would have handled with ease and this many antibiotics will ruin my health because it's already fragile or they don't prescribe my kid antibiotics and he has high fever (high fever does not automatically imply it's bacterial)...". I have heard too many of this and sick of that. No other canadian physicians would come to this forum to clarify things out because they simply don't understand our language. I guess I am overreacting or wasting my time here. But at least, I tried to send out the correct messages to our people. TCM has its strength if used properly to the right patients. It's mostly beneficial for symptom reliefs such as chronic pains (arthritis, cancer pain). So use it for that and I am not against that at all. But don't claim that TCM can do things that in fact it does not and blast the whole canadian medical system as if it's worthless or all the canadian phsycians are bunch of uncompetent people. I guess you are going too far. I am trying to defend the system here.