antiusa

To lemon tea,

我知道你会看到这个帖子。我是一个愿意分析别人指责的人。看了你的言论，觉得有有道理的地方，但也有像前面朋友对你评价的那种感觉：有些偏激。

有一个事实你是不能否认的。来蒙特利尔的大陆人都到这个网站来。但，究竟有多少人在这里骂你呢？

没骂你的人，他们还是多数吧！为什么呢？我想，那些人的想法可能和我相似：觉得的你的话不无道理，但有点偏激。如果，你视那些在这里骂了你的人为异类，那么那些没骂你的“大多数”人，是不是他们的想法就和你相似了呢？那么，他们是不是你的言论中指责的那类泯灭良知的大陆人呢？？？你看看，当有人在这里指责你的香港/台湾同胞的时候，你也会生气的；那些指责也有对的，也有错的；正如你的言论一样。在特定的环境和情绪下，没有控制和过滤过的。我觉得双方的反应都是正常人的反应。我现在倒真的很佩服那些椐理力争，扎根于这个话题的人。起码，我看他们是认真思考的人。我到真的喜欢这样的讨论继续下去，它让每个人都从新看待自己和别人。起码，也可以帮助那些心有怨气的人发泄一下，达到免费心理按摩的效果；诚然，是有益健康的，否则，憋的久了，一样会阳痿的。

另外，你的文字确实有点鲁迅，柏杨和李敖的意思。但，我们更希望你的境界也达到了他们的高度。

看你的文字，觉得你的年龄不会超过40岁；每个人的路都还长，我们都会随时修正自己的想法的；stereotype是人的感知上的误区之一。年龄和阅历的增长会，我们看问题能更清晰和更准确的。

“路慢慢，其修远兮，吾将上下而求索。。。”

这是屈原说的吧？！屈原是哪里人呢？您别告诉我，他是楚国人呀！！！

我们都是中国人！

Seaman

Noma闹骂儿:
既然你知道连狗都知道感恩报德, 你妈给你环境让你生长, 你不报德,却报怨, 来这了就认洋爸, 你还用你那猪脑儿琢磨什么呀??? NMB的对你这种猪儿不能太文雅, 你出来一次就 F-U-C-K 你一次!!!
                      :p

iebuz

Too Zee:

--难道你没有看到我讨论的只限于亚洲国家吗？你说的这些国家本来就是先进文明的代表是殖民者
The reason why I put in Britain, Germany … is that you want a sample from Asia, but your theory is not based only in Asia. Please see what you have written earlier:
请你在亚洲泛围内举出一个不受西方教化开化而能够自我独立发展而现代化的国家和民族
Your logic is: If a country or nation wants to be self-developed, modernized, it must be cultivated (colonized?) by western countries. However, British, German self-development, modernization depended on whose cultivation? No one but themselves, right? What I want to say is that western cultivation might help the development of a nation or a country, but it will never be replacing. As for the colonialism, I think I have spoken enough of it. I don’t want to repeat.

--我根本没有说过救中国的药方是殖民统治，我说的是全盘西化。请你仔细的读我的帖子。我旧事重题殖民化是为了提醒愤青们要承认西方文明的先进和中国大陆文化的堕落。
Maybe I misunderstood your posts. If so, I am willing to say sorry to you. It is not losing my face. Probably you did not express yourself clearly and misled the readers. However, your wordings, at least, implied that continuation of colonialism could help this whole country and its nation. If I misunderstand your implied meaning in your post again this time, I am willing to say sorry again to you. One question here: Some countries in Africa have been long (much longer than Japan or Taiwan if you think these two places had been colonized too) colonized by western countries, they of course had more cultivation of western civilization. Why these countries in Africa are right now still behind Japan or Taiwan? Are you going to tell me that these African countries have not been enough colonized or cultivated because of their poorer nature? Can you answer this question, or are you willing to answer this question?
As for westernization, most people in Mainland realize that it is good, and Mainland is going on this way. However, whether it is complete or partial westernization, it is not decided by you and me. I guess everything takes time. Are you going to tell me that it has been more than enough time?
Western civilization is recognized, Mainland culture is recognized too. I don’t see any conflicts between them. It is like Chinese eat with chop-sticks while Europeans and Americans with forks and knives. Are you going to declare that western civilization is in heaven while Mainland culture is in hell?

--我承认的确有个别人是另外的原因而移民，但在普遍知道加拿大新移民苦苦挣扎的情况下仍然有大陆人前赴后继的跑过来你说还有什么原因？
Firstly, what do you mean 苦苦挣扎? How do you define it? Please make it clear.
Secondly, as far as I know, in the years of 96, 97 and 98, there were also lots of immigrants to Canada from Taiwan and HK. Can you explain why?
Thirdly, I believe everyone has his own reason to make a decision. The reasons could be various. I respect their choice, I never ask why. Do you ask every immigrant from Taiwan or HK the reason of their immigration?
Fourthly, I have so many friends in Mainland, they refused the opportunities of immigrating to abroad. At least now I don’t the situation as you described as one after another (前赴后继).

--这个意见当然没错，但我指出现在大陆道德沦丧，国人奸滑也一样没错。
Only Mainland people? Not in Taiwan or HK? It could be found everywhere, including Europe and America.

--那你可能见到的大陆人太少了。台湾人可能有些方面比不少大陆人
Maybe I only a few Mainland people, but for Taiwanese, I should say not only some aspects, but 95% inferior to the people from Mainland.

但台湾人有民主有自由，可以自由选举自己的领袖
Do you think there is real democracy in Taiwan? Read the previous newspapers please. There were so many reports about the fighting, spitting to each other, hitting the tables with the heels of his shoes in presidential election, too many many scandals like that in Taiwan’s political stages while you feel so proud of Taiwan’s so called democracy…  Are you going to say that Mainland is wrose? Right?

大陆人到目前为止从整体上还缺乏独立自主的人格。
What is 独立自主的人格? Can you give an example? Or are you going to say that a person like you is the example?

The ex-president of Taiwan, Li Denghui said that the Fishing Island (sorry, I am not sure if it is the official version for this place) belonged to Japan. I suppose he must be a relation of Wang Jingwei, a traitor in Anti-Japanese War. Taiwan had such an ex-president, now you can tell me that is the reason why there were so many immigrants from Taiwan in the years of 96, 97 and 98, right?

Back to the main topic of this post started by MT911, what I think is that he only wanted more friendship between the countrymen. However, Zee, you may not agree, it does not matter. You can keep yourself in the Taiwan circle and keep away from Mainland circle. Maybe you made mistakes in wording, that is probably why you are so hated here.

Please read the followings again:
你说的有些话还是有道理的：的确，经历过殖民统治的一些地区较为发达；大陆来的移民身上也有些缺点，这都是事实。但谈论这些事实的时候，大家都有一个出发点，就是如何改正缺点，促进自身和祖国（不一定是共产党）发展，进步。但你由于态度偏激，过火，结果走向了自我否定的道路，走到了民族虚无主义的顶点，与当年陈独秀等全盘西化派相比，甚至有过之而无不及。鲁迅先生当年对中华民族的自身状况的确极为忧虑，一度几乎陷入民族虚无主义，但他有一点是从来没有改变过的：对祖国强大的热切期盼，和面对外国人时永远保持的民族尊严。所以你别用他老人家跟你相提并论。这让人感觉不舒服。
你呢？对中国不满愤恨到了极点，让人感觉恨中国不亡，恨中国人（尤其大陆人）不死，恨自己不是外国物种，恨自己得不到老外的垂怜，这是你的最大失误。
如果你真的是中国人的话，这样的心态是很痛苦的。
但并非走不出来，希望你 苦海无边，回头是岸。

bamboojj

其实贼儿，狞蠓衩还有那个没妈的也是很可怜的， 要知道刻骨的恨一个人是一件很痛苦的事，而这几位刻骨仇恨着的可是世上近五分之一的人啊。－－真惨啊！要受不了了，贼儿，狞蠓衩，没妈的，你们也可以找找心理医生，身体要紧，可别把自个整出个别态来就不好了。听到了没？

zee

To: iebuz

1)if you insist, I can sure elaborate a little more, Britan, France, German, even the whole Erope are dependent on US, without US's aid, these countries will take centuries to recover from World War II, or fall into victims of USSR communism.

2)African is much different with Chinese, african are way way behind civilization than Chinese, they are at best tribals when Europe came to conquer the continent. when a nationality is so much primitive, there's no too much you can do about it, however, South Africa, after being colonized by Europeans, is still among the most developed country in the continent.

3)HK people migrated to Canada because they feared CCP to death when HK was handed over to CCP. I am not quite sure why Taiwanese migrate, but their number is not as many as those of HKness and mainlanders.

4)when I said mainlander are evil, i meant it as a group, as individual per se, bad people are among every nationalities. once again, i said as A GROUP.

5)while there are scandals with Taiwan's demoractic system, it doesn't simply means it's not a system of demoracy. don't be stupid, son. it's a matter of perfection of system in Taiwan, while it's a matter of existence of system in mainland.

6)Li Denghui is denounced by most Taiwaness both in Taiwan and oversea, he can't be accounted as a representative of Taiwanesses.

7) MT911 wants to make friends with mainlander fellows but get snubbed, that's because mainlanders are so evil that nobody can trust nobody no more, i am just pointing out this simple fact, whether you like it or not.

8)I don't negate myself as a member chinese nationality, I just point out a simple fact that mainlanders are bad due to the fact they are from a land on the road to perdiction.

**********************************************

To: eyeglass

请注意，我从来没有说过‘完全抛弃自己的传统，祖先和文化，完全照搬西方而成功’，我只是说要全盘西化，从政治上，经济上，法律体制等。你要完全抛弃自己的传统，祖先和文化是你自己的事，与我无关。

tryit

If everybody had a mind like that of Zee, m_w and Lemon Tea, there won't be any discriminations on Mainland Chinese.

I dare to say that Zee, M_W and Lemon Tea must have succceed or to be succeed in this society,
because they are wise.

Seaman

iebuz:
哈哈, 你别提非洲,不能揭他西人主子的伤巴, 他认为亚洲四小龙过去若没西人殖民统治的话,才不会有今天. 民主印度和巴基斯坦可不在亚洲啊,在非洲,英人没去过的. 嘿嘿!

               
咬文嚼字,不如再讲一个白话文让这贼儿和欠吃chench mm听:

       -贼儿省亲,全盘西化-

贼儿在家排行老十,在外多年.母念!!!
贼儿恨家丑恶,土,但无奈自己出生在那,只好春节从西洋回国省亲,为了显耀自己已西化,特意做了全身植皮,还带了个白爸爸, 打算届时改造自己的一家子,全盘西化, 瞧他本事:
..........
未完,待续.....  

有朋友来了.　

         

ronado

你咋这也没说过，那也没说过呢？看来我们的理解力都有问题，或者您的话太高深？拜托您先给你的所谓“全盘西化”下个定义。
另外，所谓台湾“民选”出来的总统李灯会竟然can't be accounted as a representative of Taiwanesses.那台湾的民选究竟是干什么呢？包括现在的阿扁，一会儿这一会儿那，一日三变，跟你倒有些相像了。

eyesglass

原来你还知道中国的传统，祖先和文化是不能抛弃的，那么你知道中国的国情和传统同你所谓的西化有多大的冲突吗？你说西化就西化，不需要时间，不需要适应？民主是个好东西，但是也要看时间和地点。很多人都知道，台湾发展最快的时候并不是他最“民主”的现在，而是在蒋经国的独裁时期。   当初的那些中国民运分子现在都销声匿迹了，就是很好的说明了空洞的谈全盘西化，不实实在在的做事是没有市场的。  :p

chench

各位真的是爱国的话就请立马收拾包袱打道回府报效中国。是真是假，做一个简单的survey就知道了，随便抽查100个中国人，在他/她面前放一本大陆护照，一本加拿大(或美国)护照，让他/她其中选一，但条件是选任何一种都要宣誓效忠该国。你说中国人会选那一本护照呢？如果宣誓了效忠又要大谈爱中国骂洋鬼子是不是精神分裂呢？

ZEE说得很对！SEAMEN让你选你会如何抉择？
不学无术的家伙快回答！