capitalist

Post by xiaodoudou;2203702

I say the only way, because it is the only, not from my mouth, but rather from one of the people who see the truth.  

this argument doesn't fly, regardless who says it.

all roads lead to Roma, it really depends on what a person wants, what his purpose in life.
i feel our society emphasizes too much on success and winning, there is too much pressure on keeping up with the jones, we might lose sight of what life means, i am not to define what is the meaning of life, but i will not let others to define it for me.

here, a song by billy joel, my life, i like it very much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-3enjfQyuE
the song start a minute and half after the video starts

capitalist

lyrics of my life
billy joel
*********************************
Got a call from an old friend
We used to be real close
Said he couldn't go on the American way
Closed the shop, sold the house
Bought a ticket to the West Coast
Now he gives them a stand-up routine in L.A.

I don't need you to worry for me cause I'm alright
I don't want you to tell me it's time to come home
I don't care what you say anymore, this is my life
Go ahead with your own life, and leave me alone

I never said you had to offer me a second chance
(I never said you had to)
I never said I was a victim of circumstance
(I never said)
I still belong, don't get me wrong
And you can speak your mind
But not on my time

They will tell you, you can't sleep alone in a strange place
Then they'll tell you, you can't sleep with somebody else
Ah, but sooner or later you sleep in your own space
Either way it's okay, you wake up with yourself

I don't need you to worry for me cause I'm alright
I don't want you to tell me it's time to come home
I don't care what you say anymore, this is my life
Go ahead with your own life, and leave me alone

I never said you had to offer me a second chance
(I never said you had to)
I never said I was a victim of circumstance
(Of cirumstance)
I still belong, don't get me wrong
And you can speak your mind
But not on my time

I don't care what you say anymore, this is my life
Go ahead with your own life, and leave me alone

(Keep it to yourself, it's my life.)
(Keep it to yourself, it's my life.)
(Keep it to yourself, it's my life.)
(Keep it to yourself, it's my life.)

mfeous

i don't know about others,but i think what he said is craps and garbage. please excuse my language if you are offened.

if he really wanted to educate everyone, he would better write in a more easy read language so average people can understand it. maybe you and he live in ivory tower, but most of chinese don't.

i think everything boils down to the point: to beleive in confucianism or not to? this is the question we need to ask

you seem to be confucians follower, but in the real life you know his teaching is wrong and you did not follow it anyway, as you mentioned in your privous posts about your relation with your future hubby. let me just point out one thing:

人最亲者父母，其次兄弟、夫妇乃至朋友. this order is upside down. the closest should be the spouse first, your children, then parents, brothers and sisters.... if you want have a good marriage and happy family, this is the way we should follow.

xioudoudou, i might disppear from now on and concentrate on my job hunt. you are a thinker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by yelenia;2204101
就讓我默默地转贴一个东西，為討論做结束吧。钱穆先生的。錢穆是誰，聽說過嗎？！

＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝
钱穆《国史大纲》前言，引论

凡读本书请先具下列诸信念：
　　一、当信任何一国之国民，尤其是自称知识在水平线以上之国民，对其本国已往历史，应该略有所知。否则最多只算一有知识的人，不能算一有知识的国民。
　　二、所谓对其本国已往历史略有所知者，尤必附随一种对其本国已往历史之温情与敬意。否则只算知道了一些外国史，不得云对本国史有知识。
　　三、所谓对其本国已往历史有一种温情与敬意者，至少不会对其本国历史抱一种偏激的虚无主义，(即视本国已往历史为无一点有价值，亦无一处足以使彼满意。亦至少不会感到现在我们是站在已往历史最高之顶点，此乃一种浅薄狂妄的进化观。而将我们当身种种罪恶与弱点，一切诿卸于古人。此乃一种似是而非之文化自谴。
　　四、当信每一国家必待其国民具备上列诸条件者比较渐多，其国家乃再有向前发展之希望。否则其所改进，等于一个被征服国或次殖民地之改进，对其自身国家不发生关系。换言之，此种改进，无异是一种变相的文化征服，乃其文化自身之萎缩与消灭，并非其文化自身之转变与发皇。

引论
一

中国为世界上历史最完备之国家，举其特点有三。一者“悠久”。从黄帝传说以来约得4600余年。从《古竹书纪年》载夏以来，约得3700余年。夏472，殷496，周武王至幽王257，自此以下至民国纪元2681。二者“无间断”。自周共和行政以下，明白有年可稽。史记十二诸侯年表从此始，下至民国纪元2752。自鲁隐公元年以下，明白有月日可详。春秋编年从此始，下至民国纪元2633。鲁哀公卒，左传终，中间65年史文稍残缺。自周威烈王23年资治通鉴托始，至民国纪元凡2314年。三者“详密”。此指史书体裁言。要别有三：一曰编年，此本春秋。二曰纪传，此称正史，本史记。三曰纪事本末，此本尚书。其他不胜备举。可看四库书目史部分类。又中国史所包地域最广大，所含民族分子最复杂，因此益形成其繁富。若一民族文化之评价，与其历史之悠久博大成正比，则我华夏文化，于并世固当首屈一指。

然中国最近，乃为其国民最缺乏国史智识之国家。何言之？“历史智识”与“历史材料”不同。我民族国家已往全部之活动，是为历史。其经记载流传以迄今者，只可谓是历史的材料，而非吾辈今日所需历史的智识。材料累积而愈多，智识则与时以俱新。历史智识，随时变迁，应与当身现代种种问题，有亲切之联络。历史智识，贵能鉴古而知今。至于历史材料，则为前人所记录，前人不知后事，故其所记，未必一一有当于后人之所欲知。然后人欲求历史智识，必从前人所传史料中觅取。若蔑弃前人史料而空谈史识，则所谓“史”者非史，而所谓“识”者无识，生乎今而臆古，无当于“鉴于古而知今”之任也。

今人率言“革新”，然革新固当知旧。不识病象，何施刀药？仅为一种凭空抽象之理想，蛮干强为，求其实现，鲁莽灭裂，于现状有破坏无改进。凡对于已往历史抱一种革命的蔑视者，此皆一切真正进步之劲敌也。惟藉过去乃可认识现在，亦惟对现在有真实之认识，乃能对现在有真实之改进。故所贵于历史智识者，又不仅于鉴古而知今，乃将未来精神尽其一部分孕育与向导之责也。

且人类常情，必先“认识”乃生“感情”。人最亲者父母，其次兄弟、夫妇乃至朋友。凡其所爱，必其所知。人惟为其所爱而奋战牺牲。人亦惟爱其所崇重，人亦惟崇重其所认识与了知。求人之敬事上帝，必先使知有上帝之存在，不啻当面观体焉，又必使熟知上帝之所以为上帝者，而后其敬事上帝之心油然而生。人之于国家民族亦然。惟人事上帝本乎信仰，爱国家民族则由乎知识，此其异耳。人之父母，不必为世界最崇高之人物；人之所爱，不必为世界最美之典型，而无害其为父母，为所爱者。惟知之深，故爱之切。若一民族对其已往历史无所了知，此必为无文化之民族。此民族中之分子，对其民族，必无甚深之爱，必不能为其民族真奋战而牺牲，此民族终将无争存于并世之力量。今国人方蔑弃其本国已往之历史，以为无足重视；既已对其民族已往文化，懵无所知，而犹空呼爱国。此其为爱，仅当于一种商业之爱，如农人之爱其牛。彼仅知彼之身家地位有所赖于是，彼岂复于其国家有逾此以往之深爱乎！凡今之断头决胸而不顾，以效死于前敌者，彼则尚于其国家民族已往历史，有其一段真诚之深爱；彼固以为我神州华裔之生存食息于天壤之间，实自有其不可侮者在也。故欲其国民对国家有深厚之爱情，必先使其国民对国家已往历史有深厚的认识。欲其国民对国家当前有真实之改进，必先使其国民对国家已往历史有真实了解。我人今日所需之历史智识，其要在此。   

二

略论中国近世史学，可分三派述之。一曰传统派，亦可谓“记诵派”。二曰革新派，亦可谓“宣传派”。三曰科学派，亦可谓“考订派”。“传统派”主于记诵，熟谙典章制度，多识前言往行，亦间为校勘辑补。此派乃承前清中叶以来西洋势力未入中国时之旧规模者也。其次曰“革新派”，则起于清之季世，为有志功业、急于革新之士所提倡。最后曰“科学派”，乃承“以科学方法整理国故”之潮流而起。此派与传统派，同偏于历史材料方面，路径较近；博洽有所不逮，而精密时或过之。二派之治史，同于缺乏系统，无意义，乃纯为一种书本文字之学，与当身现实无预。无宁以“记诵”一派，犹因熟谙典章制度，多识前言往行，博洽史实，稍近人事；纵若无补于世，亦将有益于己。至“考订派”则震于“科学方法”之美名，往往割裂史实，为局部窄狭之追究。以活的人事，换为死的材料。治史譬如治岩矿，治电力，既无以见前人整段之活动，亦于先民文化精神，漠然无所用其情。彼惟尚实证，号客观，既无意于成体之全史，亦不论自己民族国家之文化成绩也。

惟“革新”一派，其治史为其有意义，能具系统，能努力使史学与当前现身相绾合，能求把握全史，能时时注意及于自己民族国家已往文化成绩之评价。故革新派之治史，其言论意见，多能不胫而走，风靡全国。今国人对于国史稍有观感，皆出数十年中此派史学之赐。虽然，“革新派”之于史也，急于求智识，而怠于问材料。其甚者，对于二、三千年来积存之历史材料，亦以革新现实之态度对付之，几若谓此汗牛充栋者，曾无一顾盼之价值矣。因此其于史，既不能如“记诵派”所知之广，亦不能如“考订派”所获之精。彼于史实，往往一无所知。彼之所谓系统，不啻为空中之楼阁。彼治史之意义，转成无意义。彼之把握全史，特把握其胸中所臆测之全史。彼对于国家民族已往文化之评价，特激发于其一时之热情，而非有外在之根据。其绾合历史于现实也，特借历史口号为其宣传改革现实之工具。彼非能真切沉浸于已往之历史智识中，而透露出改革现实之方案。彼等乃急于事功而伪造智识者，智识既不真，事功亦有限。今我国人乃惟乞灵于此派史学之口吻，以获得对于国史之认识，故今日国人对于国史，乃最为无识也。


三

　　所谓“革新派”之史学，亦随时变迁。约言之，亦可分为三期。其先当前清末叶。当时，有志功业之士所渴欲改革者，厥在“政体”。故彼辈论史，则曰：“中国自秦以来二千年，皆专制黑暗政体之历史也。”彼辈谓：“二十四史乃帝王之家谱。”彼辈于一切史实，皆以“专制黑暗”一语抹杀。彼辈对当前病症，一切归罪于二千年来之专制。然自专制政体一旦推翻，则此等议论，亦功成身退，为明日之黄花矣。继“政治革命”而起者，有“文化革命”。彼辈之目光，渐从“政治”转移而及“学术思想”，于是其对国史之论锋，亦转集于“学术思想”之一途。故彼辈论史，则曰：“中国自秦以来二千年，思想停滞无进步，而一切事态因亦相随停滞不进。”彼辈或则谓：“二千年来思想，皆为孔学所掩盖。”或则谓：“二千年来思想，皆为老学所麻醉。”故或者以当前病态归罪孔子，或者归罪于老子。或谓：“二千年来思想界，莫不与专制政体相协应。”或则谓：“此二千年来之思想，相当于欧洲史之所谓‘中古时期’。要之如一丘之貉，非现代之所需。”或则谓：“思想限制于文字，欲一扫中国自秦以来二千年思想之沉痼积病，莫如并废文字，创为罗马拼音，庶乎有谬。”然待此等宣传成功，则此等见识，亦将为良弓之藏。继“文化革命”而起者，有“经济革命”。彼辈谓：“无论‘政治’与‘学术’，其后面为‘社会形态’所规定。故欲切实革新政治机构、学术内容，其先应从事于‘社会经济形态’之改造。”彼辈对于当前事态之意见，影响及于论史，则曰：“中国自秦以来二千年，皆一‘封建时期’也。二千年来之政治，二千年来之学术，莫不与此二千年来之社会经济形态，所谓‘封建时期’者相协应。”正惟经济改革未有成功，故此辈议论，犹足以动国人之视听。有治史者旁睨而嘘曰：“国史浩如烟海，我知就我力之所及，为博洽谛当之记诵而已，为精细绵密之考订而已，何事此放言高论为！”虽然，国人之所求于国史略有知，乃非此枝节烦琐之考订，亦非此繁重庞杂之记诵，特欲于国家民族已往历史文化有大体之了解，以相应于其当身现实之所需知也。有告之者曰：“中国自秦以来二千年，皆专制黑暗政体之历史也。”则彼固已为共和政体下之自由民矣，无怪其掉头而不肯顾。或告之曰：“中国自秦以来二千年，皆孔子、老子中古时期思想所支配下之历史也。”则彼固已呼吸于二十世纪新空气之仙囿，于孔、老之为人与其所言，固久已鄙薄而弗睹，喑而无知，何愿更为陈死人辨此宿案，亦无怪其奋步而不肯留。或告之曰：“我中国自秦以来二千年，皆封建社会之历史耳，虽至今犹然，一切病痛尽在是矣。”于是有志于当身现实之革新，而求知国史已往之大体者，莫不动色称道，虽牵鼻而从，有勿悔矣。然竟使此派论者有踌躇满志之一日，则我国史仍将束高阁、覆酱瓶，而我国人仍将为无国史知识之民族也.

yelenia

我不由得驚歎了。極品到處有，蒙城特別多。

"i think what he said is craps and garbage."  －－首先，crap是粗口，非常沒有禮貌的，你在哪兒學的英文，怎麼英文的好處沒學會，盡學到些簡單粗暴的?

錢穆先生的話，你有本事說是garbage。人不能無知狂妄到這種地步。你是毛時代的人吧? 如此淺薄無知，讓人驚歎。二十世紀屈指可數的國學大師的話，你一看不懂，就粗暴地罵人家crap。還有，你沒有基本的中文修養，讀不懂，還怪人家不好好寫?! 你以為我們還活在文革時代啊？

看來沒有一個中國人你是看得上的了。你這輩子就只能跟著你的“洋爸爸”們玩。可惜，你的英文沒好到跟人家玩的地步，只能到中文網上來顯擺。太可憐了。人家不理你，不是人家讀不懂，拜託，中式英文讀起來好痛苦啊。去看看人家外國人是怎麼寫英文的吧。估計別人都不願花費時間跟你爭呢。我是心腸好，才在這裡苦口婆心地說個不停。真是好心當成驢肝肺。

拜託，我在國內都沒看到素質這麼差的，罵錢穆先生的話是crap，你酸溜溜地說我，我都不願花時間理你。罵錢穆先生的這個，我實在受不了了，你這文革遺毒+奴顏媚骨，可憐，可悲，可歎。

自己想想去。你見過哪個魁北瓜得意洋洋地（帶著優越感的）跟別的魁北瓜說英語嗎（在沒有外國人的情況下）？！別人還沒來奴化你，你自己送上門去被奴化！

我不會再回了。這個帖子里的大家再見。我的責任已經盡到了。

xiaodoudou

Post by capitalist;2204333
this argument doesn't fly, regardless who says it.

all roads lead to Roma, it really depends on what a person wants, what his purpose in life.
i feel our society emphasizes too much on success and winning, there is too much pressure on keeping up with the jones, we might lose sight of what life means, i am not to define what is the meaning of life, but i will not let others to define it for me.

here, a song by billy joel, my life, i like it very much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-3enjfQyuE
the song start a minute and half after the video starts

I agree with your point about the meaning of life. The poem is nice too. You know, some points or argument, they have certain corresponding premises. Without them, they sure do not make any sense.

Here, what we have been talking about is how to fit in, how to do better and how to feel better in other countries with different cultures! If you want to achieve these purposes, then you need to master up your thoughts in the positive ways and carry out positive actions! I am NOT AT ALL saying that American way of life should be kept up with! If you are talking about GENERALLY the meaning of life for each different person, then it is another subject. No? One million of people see life in one million of ways. What life means to each one of us, it is completely up to each of us!

The excellent thing to live in Canada is that we are free to live whatever ways we want. But I can see that many Chinese can not see it and do not understand it and do not know how to enjoy it. Isn't it the greatest pity? We do not need much to enjoy life, but for us Chinese, we DO need a complete new mind to be ABLE to enjoy just L_I_F_E itself. We Chinese have more than enough in material world, yet we are still worrying about many things...back in China, and unfortunately here AS WELL. It takes time and I believe with time and thinking, we will be there as you have described! I see what you mean. Too bad that we can not talk in person, which makes it much more difficult to straight points up. But I understand what you mean and I agree with you on your premises which are different from the ones we are talking about!

Have a nice day!

xiaodoudou

Post by capitalist;2204297
then, who defines premature? this "premature judgment" sounds a lot like heresy, in the middle age, a person being accused of heresy, (a lot of times found guilty) was persecuted and punished severely.

The pre-mature can be defined according to the BIG COMMON SENSE. Don't have to link it to the dark ages which I know very well what they meant! Common sense comes from a sincere heart, intelligent mind and the objective way of looking at things!

Life is green and theory is gray. Be careful not to fall into the complicated and sophisticated historical mundane. What we should do is to be there, seen it, read it and come out with FRESH BRAND new branches and leaves!

Have a nice day!

xiaodoudou

Post by mfeous;2204374
  
xioudoudou, i might disppear from now on and concentrate on my job hunt. you are a thinker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks! I take it as a great compliment!

I hope you do change your attitude towards Quebec and its people. We do not have to be nice to them to earn our life here, yet it is our glorious destiny to love, no matter who they might be, less alone the fact that they have been here longer and have done more than we do!

You are a thinker and a gentleman too, sometimes quirky a bit, but you are special, not because you give me compliment. You are the first and only one I know who think alike with me about Confucius! I hope you take actions as well, positive actions, which should come from positive thinking.

Happy job hunting!

mfeous

我不會再回了。這個帖子里的大家再見
is this the 2nd or third time you said so? but you keep coming back. please, if you can not keep your words, do not say it.

it is silly so many people spent so much time on language issue, which has not much to do with the subject. at least, i am consistant by using just english, not like you and some others mixing a few english words in their chinese text.

you accused me of 奴顏媚骨 by using english, but you threw yourself to your “洋爸爸? isn't it worst?

enough is enough. remember what obama quoted book 1 Corinthians 13:11 in his inauguration speech: the time has come to set aside the chirldish things. we need to move on.

if i said confucian teachings are garbage, i can imagine how you would react as qian mu is just one of his disciple. lucky, i missed the culture revoluation, but i learned a great deal of tragical stories from my parents and others.

ironicly, today's china is not much better than that era in terms of freedom and democracy. like i mentioned before, the most needed thing for all chinese and china  is  a true faith and spiritual revival, not any philosophies, scholars and faulse gods.

Post by yelenia;2204411
我不由得驚歎了。極品到處有，蒙城特別多。

"i think what he said is craps and garbage." －－首先，crap是粗口，非常沒有禮貌的，你在哪兒學的英文，怎麼英文的好處沒學會，盡學到些簡單粗暴的?

錢穆先生的話，你有本事說是garbage。人不能無知狂妄到這種地步。你是毛時代的人吧? 如此淺薄無知，讓人驚歎。二十世紀屈指可數的國學大師的話，你一看不懂，就粗暴地罵人家crap。還有，你沒有基本的中文修養，讀不懂，還怪人家不好好寫?! 你以為我們還活在文革時代啊？

看來沒有一個中國人你是看得上的了。你這輩子就只能跟著你的“洋爸爸”們玩。可惜，你的英文沒好到跟人家玩的地步，只能到中文網上來顯擺。太可憐了。人家不理你，不是人家讀不懂，拜託，中式英文讀起來好痛苦啊。去看看人家外國人是怎麼寫英文的吧。估計別人都不願花費時間跟你爭呢。我是心腸好，才在這裡苦口婆心地說個不停。真是好心當成驢肝肺。

拜託，我在國內都沒看到素質這麼差的，罵錢穆先生的話是crap，你酸溜溜地說我，我都不願花時間理你。罵錢穆先生的這個，我實在受不了了，你這文革遺毒+奴顏媚骨，可憐，可悲，可歎。

自己想想去。你見過哪個魁北瓜得意洋洋地（帶著優越感的）跟別的魁北瓜說英語嗎（在沒有外國人的情況下）？！別人還沒來奴化你，你自己送上門去被奴化！

我不會再回了。這個帖子里的大家再見。我的責任已經盡到了。

adeline

Post by yelenia;2180646
不强于做人家土地上的二等公民?  

这句话我不同意.

我相信在中国我连九等公民都算不上. 不知道你在中国属于几等公民? 要知道, 在中国一等公民都住在中南海.

adeline

Post by allfollowme;2181019
看了这个帖子忍不住嘿嘿笑，想起一个故事.
小工张三和李四站在村口讨论谁的祖上更富，张三说，俺祖上最富，俺祖上富的天天吃肉。李四说，俺祖上最富，你祖上吃肉只吃了300年，俺祖上吃肉都吃了500年。这个时候老板吃完肉出来，看见两人在闲聊，怒从心底起，一大耳瓜子打过去，说，吃肉，吃肉，炒鱿鱼想不想吃啊，二人顿作鸟兽散。

俺个人观点。
1，5000年啥啥就一忽悠人，同意中国对近代文明没啥贡献。
2，对近代文明没贡献不等于对俺没贡献。
3，没贡献就没贡献，也不是啥大不了的事情，没啥值得不好意思的，祖上没富过，祖上没做善事，难道是我的错？有些人是不是不好意思到上瘾了啊，300里外王五打个喷嚏，他都马上说不好意思，今天的事，不好意思，明天的事情，不好意思，现在连祖上的事，也不好意思，累不累啊。
4，过去没贡献，没啥大不了，现在没贡献，个人认为也没啥大不了的，就是将来没贡献，也没啥，人类文明，干嘛都爱起这么大的担子啊，我个人觉得，管它是主动还是被动，是出发点还是副产品，只要俺觉得俺对俺生活着的社会有贡献，就足够俺好意思了。

非常好! 完全同意.